BLT worthy micro, with a hope for size.

[CBo]

Running some F2 hunts for Dan.
The previous pics are a tray with 109X F2 (from orange fruit).
11 days from seeding.
Germination wasn’t as uniform as it will be when I get my Lab set up in the basement, but most germed.
So, some of the smaller seedlings could just be later starting seeds.
So I’m letting these go longer than I’d guess some of you do when thinning?
I planted 112 seeds in a standard flat.
Promix HP. 14 rows of 8.
109 seeds up from 112.
Various sizes.
I will start plucking the obvious and go from there.
Seems like the spacing pattern I picked is good, in that the plants aren’t crowded yet. They are all an inch apart in all directions.
then thinning will opening things up as they grow, which is good.
Dan, about what age are the “winners” that you grow on?
Do you go from seed tray right to the final pot?

[dfollett]

I don't have time to go into detail right now, but go to this link. I answered a similar question last night. We will eventually get this type of info centralized. https://www.tomato-talk.com/forum/pr...update#post363

[CBo]

4 weeks from sowing
Potted up 23.
2 potato leaf made it.
No carrot leaves.

[dfollett]

They look great. I led you astray in my email that told you what to expect. I wrote from memory, without going through my records and was wrong about you likely seeing 25% carrot leaf. Did you plant any of the 109X F2 that were from the Pink/Orange F1s?

Did you see any carrot leaf at all? I told you 109X was a cross between a carrot leaf micro mama and the papa was an F1 regular leaf, large fruited, striped indeterminate. I was half right. The mama was a micro, but instead of being carrot leaf, it was a regular leaf F1 that was the result of a cross between a carrot leaf micro mama X a regular leaf micro papa. The F1 used in the 109X cross was regular leaf, not carrot leaf. That changes the expectations for the F2 leaf type dramatically.

There is the potential for some carrot leaf, but certainly not the 25% I told you to expect. There also is potato leaf in the pedigree of the papa so regular, carrot and potato leaf are all possible, weighted very heavily toward regular leaf.

If you are following how we are organizing this project, we need someone to take the lead for the different lines. The 109X line is one I feel has as much potential for something really unique as any. We'd love to have you take the lead on it of you'd like. I have started some F2x I just potted up. Other than that, you are the only one growing that cross.

Keep us posted.

[dfollett]

I have an additional pack of F2 seed from a different cross I want to send you since the seed I sent was not exactly what I intended it to be. I intended to send you seed that had more potential for carrot leaf. Don't misunderstand me, I think the one I sent you has great potential for large interesting fruit, just not very much in the way of carrot leaf. In my head, I missed it by a generation.

The one I have ready to send is actually a cross between carrot leaf micro and regular leaf indeterminate (striped, large fruited). The one I sent you had carrot leaf as a grandma, not a mama. You had mentioned in an email you were moving. Should I send it to the same address? If not, PM or email me your new address. I'll send it out tomorrow.

[CBo]

Yeah, same address.

I started 2 trays at the same time. One pack said orange, the other pink/orange.
I have seen no carrot leaf in either tray.
112 seedlings in each tray, and out of both combined, I only got 2 potato leaf plants. I think one will be a too-tall-plant in the end.
But there is this ONE plant. Regular leaf with an absolute fat trunk compared to any plant I have, which themselves have nice thick stems. And the canopy is large. It's just so obviously different in vigor than anything in the tray. I'm growing it out no matter how big/tall it gets lol.

[CBo]

Oh, and I will do the 109x line work. I think?
Would I have to grow more types within 109?

[dfollett]

But there is this ONE plant. Regular leaf with an absolute fat trunk compared to any plant I have, which themselves have nice thick stems. And the canopy is large. It's just so obviously different in vigor than anything in the tray. I'm growing it out no matter how big/tall it gets lol.

I have seen a few like that in different lines. I always keep those - at least unless they get so tall I can't deal with them. Thick stems is one of my main final selection criteria.

[dfollett]

Oh, and I will do the 109x line work. I think?
Would I have to grow more types within 109?

We haven't established anything specific. I'll let SeanInVa and Diane Whitehead speak to this somewhat, but from my perspective, your responsibilities would be what you make them. I'd like to see someone with a real interest take the reins of the different lines and take them wherever the genetics lead. If the line segregate into several potential types (i.e. large fruit, hearts, multicolored, etc.) someone needs to decide which, if any, are worth pursuing. Then, if they want, provide seeds to others interested in helping, updating this site on progress.....etc. Not necessarily growing everything themselves.

I'll get the seeds sent tomorrow. I'll send you seeds from 128X F2. That is a cross between a 33X micro (my carrot leaf line) X 7H22. That is a large fruited multicolored F1 from FrogsLeap Farms. It should have tremendous potential for large fruit and color variety. That one should give you 25% carrot leaf.

[CBo]

So much variation in leaf morphology. Very cool when I think and look now.
So it seems maybe I shouldn't assume that I know what a carrot leaf seedling looks like.
I looked online at some pics, but none were of the seedling stage or slightly older.
When you have time, a pic of a carrot leaf seedling around 4 weeks old would be handy.

I would be down with doing whatever I can for the 109x line.

[dfollett]

This is the only photo I have that shows younger carrot leaf plants. Don't know the exact age.

Most are easy to distinguish. At times in the early generations with these crosses, there is almost a continuum from potato leaf through regular leaf and then to carrot leaf with more and larger leaf serrations and finer leaves. There seems to be no clear delineations between the categories. Sort of like there is no clear delineation between dwarf and micro - just a continuum and we get to decide where the line is.

You'll get a feel for calling them CL or RL and as they stabilize, I think they'll separate easier.

[dfollett]

Dan, about what age are the “winners” that you grow on?
Do you go from seed tray right to the final pot?

I don't know if I answered these questions in the post I sent you to, so I'll answer it here. I most from seed tray to a 4" cup. As a general rule, I leave them in the seed tray longer than I do regular seedlings. Within reason, the longer I wait the more accurately I can select. I usually wait a little longer to move them into their final pot than I do when planting normal plants outside. No problem doing it any way that works for you. I usually wait longer than normal to give them a chance to differentiate as much as possible. They are usually starting to blossom well before I move them to their final pot. It makes it possible to identify multiflora plants.

I found another photo of carrot leaf.

[dfollett]

Leaf types..... and everything in between! These are 5 1/2 weeks old - planted January 31 - photographed March 10.

[CBo]

I don't know if I answered these questions in the post I sent you to, so I'll answer it here. I most from seed tray to a 4" cup. As a general rule, I leave them in the seed tray longer than I do regular seedlings. Within reason, the longer I wait the more accurately I can select. I usually wait a little longer to move them into their final pot than I do when planting normal plants outside. No problem doing it any way that works for you. I usually wait longer than normal to give them a chance to differentiate as much as possible. They are usually starting to blossom well before I move them to their final pot. It makes it possible to identify multiflora plants.

I found another photo of carrot leaf.

Dan, I definitely found value in pushing the seedlings longer in the tray than what I normally would do.
Upon seeing your CL pics, I don't think I have any from either tray I started.
So, if you potted up 18 out of 112 started seeds (94 have been culled) into 4" pots, how many will make it to your final pot size to grow out to fruiting?
Right now, my 18 stage 1 graduates are all very similar in size and structure. I assume my final cull is primarily height followed by girth or vigor? And roughly how long do you wait to cull your 4" pots after potting them up?

[SeanInVa]

Chris, I grew two crosses out at once - 113X F3 and 150X F2 (that's not really 150X, but we're still figuring that out) - and both started out very, very similar in size. I don't think I really noticed differences (either between the two, or within the same line) until a few months later once they had really started growing.

As an example, here is a mix of them about 1 month after sowing



And here some are after up-potting. this picture was about 2 weeks after the first


And then 1 month after that second one - hard to tell here but they really started to differentiate. Now I've got some that are 6-8" tall, and some that are 14+" tall. The two in the foreground in round pots are NOT part of the project - those are Jochalos and Andrina, respectively from left to right