Where does a micro end and a dwarf begin?

[SeanInVa]

When we talk about micros, we're typically talking about "compact determinates" or otherwise, tomato plants that grow to perhaps 18" tall - with most of them being much shorter.

At what point do we differentiate between a "dwarf" and a "micro"? I could see 2-2.25' (24-30") being kind of borderline - but probably in range of being more likely to provide bigger tomatoes. Is there room for a classification of those between "micro" and "dwarf"?

[dfollett]

Good questions. I am not aware of anything definitive. We are in a position to have something to say about it. Let's give it some thought, make a decision and go with it. Then we can see if it sticks.

[Diane Whitehead]

Dwarf tomatoes are defined more by their habit, rather than their height. They have thick foliage and look more like sturdy little trees rather than a bush or vine like other tomatoes. I don't know how short they can be, but they can be as tall as a short person ( 5 feet).

I don't know how to define Dan's micros. Should they be compared with determinates? Should we forget about height and call them micros if they will fruit when grown in a one gallon pot?

[SeanInVa]

I've only grown out one dwarf variety so far (Tennessee Suited) and that was exactly the growth habit. It did keep growing eventually, but they were stocky, sturdy plants.

Some of the 150X F2s have this characteristic, but on a smaller scale. There is dwarf heritage in that cross, so that definitely makes sense.

If we were to use the "1 gallon pot" as the qualification - are we talking a "1 gallon nursery pot" which holds less than 1 gallon (0.66 gallon or 2.5 liters), or literally a pot that holds 1 US gallon (~3.78 liters)? Is it important to even make that distinction?

[dfollett]

Diane is right about the dwarf. They manifest the unique characteristics they get from the Dwarf gene that she mentioned – thick stocky, thick, rugose leaves, shorter internodes between branches. Historically, they were referred to as ‘tree-type’ which is quite descriptive of them.

Some of these are very much like that to the extreme. Some then terminate by sending up a single stem which branches to a huge multiflora umbrella of blossoms. On some that umbrella then sets a bunch of fruit it is not strong enough to support especially those from crosses with large-fruited varieties.

I think these all carry that gene. The Red Robin X Rose Quartz Multiflora (MMF) is in the pedigree of all of them somewhere, and some also have other ‘micros’. One of the reasons I say that is with a cross between MMF and an indeterminate, 25% of the F2s are dwarf or shorter. That is the same ratio as a cross between a typical dwarf and an indeterminate. That’s why I am convinced there are several other genes involved to make them tiny with not all of them carrying all the same genes. I'd like to see folks make crosses with these and all of the other micros out there, to see what happens. I crossed 33X with Pinocchio Orange. The F1 reached 4' tall growing in a 6" pot and I kept topping it after that.

[dfollett]

Another question about the definition of a micro. I don't know if we can stabilize this type but it would be interesting to see. At six inches it ripened 6 or seven quite large fruits. It then sent up a new stem that ripened another 10-12 fruits. When they ripened I thought it was done, but it sent up another stem that looked very healthy while the lower part of the plant looked quite exhausted. I attempted to transplant it outside in the garden at that point, but it didn't survive the transplant. I think it is a variation of determinate that doesn't die when it ripens a batch like some do but sends out a new main stem.

These three photos are all the same plant. The first photo was about March 10, the second was May 18 and the third was July 8. Does that qualify as a micro? If it were the height of the third photo when it ripened its first fruit, I would have culled it already.

Perhaps a micro ought to be anything that can be successfully grown in a relatively small pot. We can define it however we want.

[SeanInVa]

Another question about the definition of a micro. I don't know if we can stabilize this type but it would be interesting to see. At six inches it ripened 6 or seven quite large fruits. It then sent up a new stem that ripened another 10-12 fruits. When they ripened I thought it was done, but it sent up another stem that looked very healthy while the lower part of the plant looked quite exhausted. I attempted to transplant it outside in the garden at that point, but it didn't survive the transplant. I think it is a variation of determinate that doesn't die when it ripens a batch like some do but sends out a new main stem.

Would this be more akin to a "semi-determinate" type? The one dwarf I grew was also kind of like this. It grew to a certain height and fruited. Then it grew some more and fruited, etc until I finally ripped them up.

As for definition - I've seen a few terms thrown around in various descriptions such as "micro dwarf" or "compact determinate". The only micro I've grown prior to this winter was Red Robin, and those were in 1gal nursery pots (0.66 gallon). They grew to a certain height and fruited, and then flowered a little more and fruited. But they didn't keep growing any taller.

At this early stage, I would say "size" comes into play some here. Maybe there are different classifications of micros (small, medium, large - as an example, and for lack of a better labeling strategy at this point). Maybe "Compact Determinate" is accurate for something like the Red Robin, and "Micro Dwarf" is accurate for something like you described above, that kept growing and growing.

[dfollett]

I think the semi-determinate would probably be the proper description for what I saw. The main stem terminated with an inflorescence - which a determinate does. However, it then sent up a side shoot that acted like a second main stem that also ended with an inflorescence and so on. I find different definitions for determinate and semi-determinate. I don't know if there is anything official or not.

Again, do we care that much? If it can be grown in a pot indoors or it stays tiny while it ripens a batch of fruit it works for me. You'll see what I mean after you grow a bunch of these things.

[oakley]

Heritage uses some classification terms that are still under discussion I think.
Dwarf / Compact Varieties(171)

• Dwarf Tomato Project(71)
• Basket Tomatoes(37)
• Balcony Tomatoes(5)
• Micro Dwarf Tomatoes(24)
• Dwarf Varieties(25)
• Compact Varieties(43)

The list of compact varieties hold 'everything else' or 'where does it fit?'. Fortunately the descriptions are extensive enough.
Some more shrub-like, (compact determinate), (?).

Honestly I've not given this much thought since I started growing the dwarf and micros first in 2016. And then in 2018 I had a
similar experience in a dwarf project grow out. A compact tree-like dwarf. Excellent flavor so worth another look/grow. Around
two feet it created a dense top centered bloom mass. I do not snip or touch. The plant aborted the lower leaves. The one
mega bloom unfortunately it aborted.

[dfollett]

This is a 'tweener'. At about 18", it is probably too tall to be a micro. Would it work as a dwarf? Are there any multiflora dwarfs? I figured the fruits would be red or red/yellow. However, a sibling of this from the same batch of seed recently showed dark purple with green stripes. How thin do we want to spread ourselves?

[Diane Whitehead]

It looks the perfect size for growing in a container outside, maybe on an apartment balcony.

That is probably going to be the most popular use for our micros. Not that many gardeners are going to have light set-ups for winter crops.

[SeanInVa]

Right - I am keeping some that are too tall for micros - but want to see how they do as a "tweener" as you called it. Some were MF. I don't know if that is something we include in the MTDP itself - but remember, I didn't intend this site to be just for one project - but to facilitate many different projects and experiments

So I will likely work on that separately as a personal thing I grow along with everything else just to see what happens.

My mother has some vertical space constraints in her bed; rather, she will starting this year once I build the enclosure for it to keep the squirrels out - so I'm actively looking for tomato plants that will fit in there.

[dfollett]

It looks the perfect size for growing in a container outside, maybe on an apartment balcony.

That is probably going to be the most popular use for our micros. Not that many gardeners are going to have light set-ups for winter crops.

Good point. I'm probably too focus on tiny. I need to keep this line in mind for someone wanting to grow in containers on a balcony..... How's best to keep track of that sort of information? I should probably say who's best (because I know it's not me)

Right - I am keeping some that are too tall for micros - but want to see how they do as a "tweener" as you called it. Some were MF. I don't know if that is something we include in the MTDP itself - but remember, I didn't intend this site to be just for one project - but to facilitate many different projects and experiments

I fully agree. I don't want this project to just be about those I've made, but would like to see it expanded. I would like to see this site expanded to encompass everything you'd like it to be - (I don't know how much effort it takes on your end to keep it going).

So I will likely work on that separately as a personal thing I grow along with everything else just to see what happens.

Great!. That can be done either as something separate or as an extension of this project. There may well be more interest in that genre than the really little ones.

I have a few lines I've kinda given up on because they did what the one in the photo above is doing. I'll send you some of those to play with.

[Diane Whitehead]

We just need a good term for them. As we are looking through various seed catalogues, we can pay attention to what small tomato plants are called. "Pot Plant" would have worked once upon a time, but has been hijacked.

[dfollett]

Patio Tomatoes?