Delicious and large-fruited tomato potential

[CBo]

I am not saying megablooms are associated with with multiflora generally. They're not typically. But there is a situation where they seem to be.

I am not an expert in any way about megablooms. As I understand it, they can pop up anywhere. They are fused blossoms - a random deformity/defect. Outside in the garden in normal indeterminate tomatoes, they are often associated with extra cold nights and are more frequent in early season blossoms. That is not the megabloom I am talking about.

There is also at least one type of megabloom that has a genetic component to it. Some lines of these plants manifest that trait occasionally. If you look at the two photos I posted, you'll see a megabloom at the tip of a main stem in front of an inflorescence on each plant. They appear to be determinate. The main stem ends with the inflorescence but that stem terminates with a huge megabloom instead of the stem petering out with a bunch of blossoms. I've not kept strict track to be able to say for sure that multiflora always follows that type of blossom at the end of the main stem but it seems to. The multiflora doesn't come after you trim the megabloom. They are usually growing below the tip from the start. The stem just leads with the megabloom at the tip. I'll attach a couple of photos showing what I'm saying in the extreme.

These are two photos of the same plant. The first main stem terminated with a single blossom - and no other blossoms (very unusual in my experience). It then sent up a secondary 'main' stem that terminated with a multiflora inflorescence. I don't think that second stem had a megabloom at the tip.



There may be a megabloom there on yours, but what you're seeing there is not what I am referring to. What I am referring to definitely has a genetic component to it. It is in some family lines and not others. I haven't eliminated it because I am curious to see how they do. If the plant with that characteristic is truly determinate, if it produces good large fruits, and all you need to do is to clip the megabloom from the tip - why not give if a shot?

Interesting that in the first pic the plant main stem looks like 2 fused stems, giving a somewhat flattened shape instead of cylindrical. I have one seedling that is presenting that way too. It is more flattish than round and you can see a definite cleft or line where the stem really was trying to be two stems but must have fused in the embryo?
I will have to keep my eye on that one to see if it makes a MB.

[HL2601]

This is all really interesting. Like Sean's pics, my 88's have exhibited several mega blooms, some lower, one higher but they are never terminal. I like the larger size and shape of the megablooms so I am leaving them. So far there are other tomatoes on those plants too-that are not megablooms, thus smaller b ut themegablooms in this case have not zapped the others. Does anyone know if it is bad to save seeds from a megabloom in this case? Does a megabloom produce more megablooms?

[dfollett]

If I understand it correctly, the seeds from any fruit on a plant has the same potential and any other. Which fruit you select to save seed from is irrelevant. The seeds from all fruit are the same. The question is whether or not the genes that predispose towards mega blooms are worth keeping or whether or not those traits should be eliminated from selection. It sounds to me like the mega blooms you are seeing in your 88s are different genetically from what I was describing and trying to show.

[HL2601]

This is interesting Dan because both of the 88x's I kept are regularly producing these mega blooms. I like them because I like the large ( relatively) tomatoes and it doesn't seem to inhibit the fruit set or quantity of other tomatoes the plant puts out which are not from mega blooms. To me it is a positive characteristic but I might just be a little twisted...

[dfollett]

I didn't say it was a negative characteristic. I said someone else told me it was. I haven't made up my mind. I have a couple of lines that regularly have the main stem (and eventually the side stems) terminate with inflorescences. The tip of the bloom is nearly always a larger blossom than the rest of the cluster, but not always a megabloom.. When it is a Is the megabloom (obviously multiple blossoms in one) I clip it. Otherwise I leave it. On yours, is the megabloom at the tip of a stem or cluster of blossoms? If it is, it is probably the same as what I was trying to describe.

[HL2601]

Mine generally are in the first or second of the sequence of blossoms. The mega blossom has never been a terminal blossom on the 88's. In fact I have had several trusses on one plant that have each produced mega blossoms. The one negative I see is that they are longer to ripen because they are obviously larger...and thus its possible they zap energy from the others while they ripen. I apologize if my language or observations seem novice. I am still learning.

[dfollett]

Interesting that in the first pic the plant main stem looks like 2 fused stems, giving a somewhat flattened shape instead of cylindrical. I have one seedling that is presenting that way too. It is more flattish than round and you can see a definite cleft or line where the stem really was trying to be two stems but must have fused in the embryo?
I will have to keep my eye on that one to see if it makes a MB.

I noticed the different stem but never thought of it as a possible fused stem until you mentioned it. It might well be. Interesting.... Did yours produce a fused blossom or megablossom?

The plants that sometimes have the fused blossom we've been discussing as the terminal blossom usually have an extra large blossom as the terminal blossom - sometimes it is fused sometimes not. It is not multiple blossoms in one, but is multiple times larger than the sister blossoms in the same inflorescence.

[mwamsley]

I think one of the novelties that many people want to see from a micro is one that produces something with a substantial size.

I am sure there are many reasons as to why producing a large, sandwich-covering fruit is likely not possible on a true micro - but, for one, would love to see how far we can push it.

Delicious is one variety of indeterminate tomato that is know for producing very large tomatoes. In fact, it is one variety used in many of the recent "world record" attempts (and some, winners), for "largest tomato in the world.

Hi Sean- I already emailed Dan, but I'm growing out a Delicious this year that had record grandparents. I would be happy to make a cross and send back some seed.

5.0lb Timm 2009 -> 7.33lb Hunt 2010 -> 6.51lb Meisner 2011 -> 1.97lb Thurber 2012 -> (current plant 2020)

Lost a bit in the last generation, but it could have growing conditions. I grew out a 3.09lb 'Chruch', but only allowed one mega-blossom to grow!

Mark

[Diane Whitehead]

Did you mean that one tomato weighed that much? I doubt I get that sort of weight from a season's worth of tomatoes on one plant.

[mwamsley]

Yes! The 'Church' is in the photos below. I took it to the butcher for an accurate weigh in. You can see that I tried the infamous "baby-hands" catalog technique to increase its perceived size even further.

[dfollett]

Impressive. I've not grown anything over 2 lbs.

I will try to follow up our email conversation here. That one I just posted the photo of here: (https://www.tomato-talk.com/forum/pr...page2#post1414) is my 'most advanced large'. I can send you seed right now from the batch it came from or I'm a week or so away from having seed from that plant and a very similar sibling. That 5 oz. fruit was the first picked from that plant. Others are maturing now. How big of a hurry are you in?

I have another line I really like that is at F6, but the largest of those is around 3 oz. It is a carrot leaf line. This 135X line has potential for carrot leaf, but apparently the one I grew these from was homozygous for regular leaf because I didn't see any CL in the mix from that F4 batch.

I am rounding up some that have shown the Megablosson at the end of the stem. Unfortunately, I that is a trait I haven't studiously noted, so I don't have many I can say will regularly manifest that trait. I will send some F2s of a couple of lines that should show it to some degree. You'll have to do a bit of hunting. However, these blossom at such a small size you could pot a bunch up in 4" cups and give them a bit. When that shows up, the main stem leads with the megablossom. You can't miss it. I do have a bit of seed from an F4 that is an ancestor of many different ones I am working with. Most of its offspring showed the trait. Here are a couple of photos so you can know if that is what you are looking for.

I'll also send some multiflora ones. Do you want micro only or would you want to play with some dwarf that are extremely multiflora (but also not stable - F3-F5)? How many do you want to play with?

[mwamsley]

I'm in no hurry, just happy to be able to join the project at this late stage. Those 5 oz fruits look great!

I have a small greenhouse to grow in, a shed I've been planning to convert into a grow structure and land I have been working on for future grow-outs. If you can send what you find interesting or promising, I'd like to grow them out. It will take some time, of course. Even the larger plants you mentioned above. F2s & F3s will take more space depending on what we are looking for, so I'll need to get on that shed.


I'll store some Delicious pollen for a cross with the ones you mentioned above. This paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3091046/) discusses how tomatoes got so big. First the locule mutation, then the fasciation mutation. The fused blossom with fused stamens is fasciation. Most available micros are in a wild gene state and it looks like you successfully brought those larger fruit genes on such a small plant! I'm not certain if adding Delicious to the mix would further increase the size by additive effects, but it might.

Mark

[SeanInVa]

Hi Sean- I already emailed Dan, but I'm growing out a Delicious this year that had record grandparents. I would be happy to make a cross and send back some seed.

5.0lb Timm 2009 -> 7.33lb Hunt 2010 -> 6.51lb Meisner 2011 -> 1.97lb Thurber 2012 -> (current plant 2020)

Lost a bit in the last generation, but it could have growing conditions. I grew out a 3.09lb 'Chruch', but only allowed one mega-blossom to grow!

Mark

Yeah this would be great! I'm growing some this year too - but they are just standard seed from Burpee